Author Topic: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider  (Read 8557 times)

SnyderKristine

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 07:23:16 PM »
Thanks a ton Michelle!!

PMRNC

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
Two things no one has mentioned and are facts. NOT debate.

1. YOU posted using a fake name as you have in other places and to other billers on facebook as well. That shows intent do defraud in my opinion.

2. We can sing Kumbaya until the cows go to pasture and talk about globalization all we want.. but here is a FACT... OFFSHORE COMPANIES ARE NOT BOUND IN ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM by US laws.. PERIOD. They can CLAIM HIPAA compliance, have all the right BAA they want signed but bottom line if there is a compliance issue the provider is done for.. he pays the civil, monetary and any criminal penalties there are.. LATER they can try to recoup in the offshore legal venue..but good luck with their court systems and they would NOT be able to overturn any US Federal sentences/penalties. So is the savings WORTH IT?? any SMART lawyer would advise a US physician NOT to do business overseas. Sure we can't stop it, but that doesn't mean we can't educate US physicians on the liabilities and what they could be doing to their practices in the name of saving a few bucks.

Others may not mind that you came on here with a fake name, NEVER even apologized or acknowledged it, and INTENDED to fool them.
I do mind.
Linda Walker
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PMRNC

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2014, 12:05:48 PM »
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McDonalds, Subway, KFC have branches in India

IF this doesn't prove something I don't know what does. McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Pizza hut they do not have to deal with US Healthcare Compliance regs like HIPAA, HITECH, meaningful use.. Come on.. now, if your going to try and debate this.. there is NONE. OFFSHORE COMPANIES HAVE NO LEGAL LIABILITY OR VENUE TO ADHERE TO US LAW.. PERIOD. That's the end of it. Like it or not you can't change it, we cant change it that it happens, but we sure can be there to educate US physicians on the dangers and liabilities of offshore outsourcing. This is a GREAT marketing opportunity for US medical billers and I will be there to help them campaign against it as I have for years. I can talk any physician or US practice OUT of offshore with JUST those legal facts.
Linda Walker
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Sriram_Sub

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 01:32:07 AM »
I am not as busy as you are, but I definitely don't have time for a debate on this. NOR do I think it's worth it. I wish you good luck with your campaigns, Linda! I respect your feelings.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 01:35:21 AM by Sriram_Sub »
Sriram

RichardP

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 12:17:39 PM »
For Linda, and anyone else that is interested:

1.  Does HIPAA have requirements that those in the medical profession must meet?

2.  Are there any penalties attached to HIPAA that can / must be applied to those who are not HIPAA-compliant?

3.  We have just had a practical application of Points 1 and 2:

  a.  Operating systems that are not supported by their manufacturer are not HIPAA-compliant;
  b.  Windows XP is no longer supported by it's manufacture, therefore it is not HIPAA-compliant'
  c.  Therefore, any office that uses Windows XP is not HIPAA-compliant

4.  What is the HIPAA penalty for offices that still use Windows XP?

If the cost of switching to a new operating sytem is greater than the HIPAA penalty for continuing to use Windows XP, the smartest economic choice will be to continue using WinXP.

5.  Offshore processors of patient information have no legal reason to be HIPAA-compliant - as they are outside the reach of U.S. law.  Some may choose to be compliant, in order to attract business.  But others will find that they can do business more cheaply by staying not compliant.

6.  At this link, click on the "Enforcement and Penalties for non-compliance link toward the bottom of the page.  See these words there:  Penalties will vary significantly depending on factors such as ... whether the covered entity’s failure to comply was due to willful neglect.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/

I think that purposefully sending patient information to an organization that you know is not HIPAA-Compliant would count as non-compliance due to willful neglect.  So - one should be able to file a class-action lawsuit against all medical organizations that send patient data offshore.

But wait - in order to have standing so that the court will accept your case and not throw it out, you must be able to state damages.  That is, you must state how patients as a class, and each individually, have been damaged by having their personal medical information forwarded to an entity that is not HIPAA-compliant.

Is the cost of finding and proving those damages to the court greater than the penalty that will be imposed for failing to comply with HIPAA due to willful neglect?  If yes, it does not make economic sense to file such a lawsuit, and such a lawsuit will not be filed.

We are a pretend world.  We pretend to be somebody we are not.  And we pretend to have laws that will protect the individual, when they will actually protect someone only when the economics of the situation are favorable.

7.  To others, with regard to breaking down into tribes, and protecting our own resources, etc.  Research has demonstrated time and again that the most effective span of control is around 13-15 people (a single leader cannot effectively handle much more than that).  Even rats, when hundreds are placed into a single enclosure, will break down into groups of about that size.

Bottom line of this research is that any group which does not protect its own resources will soon have those resources taken away by any group that dares to attack them.  In a "society" composed of thousands of 15-person small-groups - who will not protect their own resources - all it takes is one group, out of those thousands, willing to take away the resources from other groups, to end up with thousands of 15-person small-groups with no resources, and one 15-person small-group with all of the resources.  That is the way it has always gone.

If you are not willing to defend what is yours, someone WILL take it away from you.  Because of this, the world will always be populated by tribes, willing to defend what is theirs.

8.  Consider the fable of the ants and the grasshoppers.  The ants would have died in the winter, along with the grasshoppers, if they had shared their stuff with the grasshoppers.  Why is that a good thing to aspire to?

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/aesop-fable-the-ant-and-the-grasshopper.htm

PMRNC

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 04:51:20 PM »
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1.  Does HIPAA have requirements that those in the medical profession must meet?

Is this a trick question? LOL   YES of course


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2.  Are there any penalties attached to HIPAA that can / must be applied to those who are not HIPAA-compliant?

Again, another trick question?   Of course

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3.  We have just had a practical application of Points 1 and 2:

  a.  Operating systems that are not supported by their manufacturer are not HIPAA-compliant;
  b.  Windows XP is no longer supported by it's manufacture, therefore it is not HIPAA-compliant'
  c.  Therefore, any office that uses Windows XP is not HIPAA-compliant

Ok.. I will go along with that...

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4.  What is the HIPAA penalty for offices that still use Windows XP?

I think this is in the wrong topic area of forum.. but I don't think your question is worded properly to answer.. I think you mean what are the penalties for non compliance... PERIOD.   there are not separate penalties for "windows" vs any other .. a non compliance is a non compliance.

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If the cost of switching to a new operating sytem is greater than the HIPAA penalty for continuing to use Windows XP, the smartest economic choice will be to continue using WinXP.

What does cost have to do with complying with US federal regulations? You comply or you don't.

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5.  Offshore processors of patient information have no legal reason to be HIPAA-compliant - as they are outside the reach of U.S. law.  Some may choose to be compliant, in order to attract business.  But others will find that they can do business more cheaply by staying not compliant.

I'm really confused by your questions..I don't think it is relevant to "guess" what the offshore company presumes to do. US Covered entities that choose to do business with offshore companies are doing so "AT THEIR OWN RISK". Bottom line is there is NO legal venue to pursue non compliance of US regulations in foreign countries. That's it in a nutshell, it doesn't get much easier than that to explain.

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6.  At this link, click on the "Enforcement and Penalties for non-compliance link toward the bottom of the page.  See these words there:  Penalties will vary significantly depending on factors such as ... whether the covered entity’s failure to comply was due to willful neglect.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/

Yes again, quoting US federal laws/regs.

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I think that purposefully sending patient information to an organization that you know is not HIPAA-Compliant would count as non-compliance due to willful neglect.  So - one should be able to file a class-action lawsuit against all medical organizations that send patient data offshore.

Good luck with that if they are overseas.  Again.. going back to the original POINT..that is COMPLETELY not debatable. .. OFFSHORE COMPANIES ARE NOT BOUND BY US LAW.

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But wait - in order to have standing so that the court will accept your case and not throw it out, you must be able to state damages.  That is, you must state how patients as a class, and each individually, have been damaged by having their personal medical information forwarded to an entity that is not HIPAA-compliant.

You are assuming US law applies.. it doesn't.. FORGET US law when dealing with overseas BA/companies.

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Is the cost of finding and proving those damages to the court greater than the penalty that will be imposed for failing to comply with HIPAA due to willful neglect?  If yes, it does not make economic sense to file such a lawsuit, and such a lawsuit will not be filed.

Your either trying to confuse the matter more.. Or I'm just tired and cranky.   What does it matter? There is NO legal venue for these compliance issues OUTSIDE the U.S.

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We are a pretend world.  We pretend to be somebody we are not.  And we pretend to have laws that will protect the individual, when they will actually protect someone only when the economics of the situation are favorable.

NO.. ONLY if you PRETEND to not understand the laws in the country in which you do business.

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7.  To others, with regard to breaking down into tribes, and protecting our own resources, etc.  Research has demonstrated time and again that the most effective span of control is around 13-15 people (a single leader cannot effectively handle much more than that).  Even rats, when hundreds are placed into a single enclosure, will break down into groups of about that size.

If only it were that simple. Sure some people have a "Patriotic" view of these things..but bottom line.. it don't matter.. let's rehash..........THERE IS NO LEGAL VENUE to ENFORCE US LAW OVERSEAS.   I don't care what rats are doing. It is what it is .. and we can rationalize it all we want, but it won't change the facts.

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Bottom line of this research is that any group which does not protect its own resources will soon have those resources taken away by any group that dares to attack them.  In a "society" composed of thousands of 15-person small-groups - who will not protect their own resources - all it takes is one group, out of those thousands, willing to take away the resources from other groups, to end up with thousands of 15-person small-groups with no resources, and one 15-person small-group with all of the resources.  That is the way it has always gone.

If you are not willing to defend what is yours, someone WILL take it away from you.  Because of this, the world will always be populated by tribes, willing to defend what is theirs.

I guess it depends on how you look at things, with this issue, I prefer to just educate US covered entities on the dangers and risks of offshore outsourcing. I really don't look at things beyond that as it clouds my judgement.
 

I'm not going to pretend to be anything other than my self... I never have, and never will. I'm NOT going to help people who come to us for help outside of the US and especially not ones that come to us on the pretense of being someone else and asking questions with the INTENT to defraud .. PERIOD.   So you can all help if you want to.. I won't.
Linda Walker
Practice Managers Resource & Networking Community
One Stop Resources, Education and Networking for Medical Billers
www.billerswebsite.com

RichardP

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 03:39:27 PM »
Linda - my bad.  I should have stated that my first couple of questions were rhetorical.  They were simply meant to help focus attention so my points would be more obvious.

1. Yes, there are penalties for non-compliance.  I provided a link to show what they are.

2.  No, people will not comply with HIPAA if the penalty for non-compliance is less than the cost of complying.

3.  If submitting patient information to a non-compliant software or organization is prohibited by the HIPAA laws, then one could sue the person or organization that did the submitting to the non-compliant organizations.  I was not talking about suing foreign organizations.  I was talking about suing the domestic organizations that are violating HIPAA by submitting patient information to a non-HIPAA-compliant organization (domestic submitting to foreign).

4.  I was supporting your point made earlier in this thread.  And pointing out why your point won't ever win when the cost of complying is greater than the cost of non-compliance.

5.  In my Points 7 and 8, I was addressing the "can't we all just get along, regardless of the tribe we belong to?" plea made upthread - and providing evidence of why the answer to that plea is "no".  It is immoral to educate someone who will then use that education to take away your job, which will take away your ability to feed and care for your family.  We have never been, and never will be, one big happy family.  We are a world full of tribes, because it is human nature to break large groups up into smaller tribes.  Given this, it is immoral for any one to give another tribe the tools to destroy your own tribe.  (Tribe only equals small group here; nothing more.)  And history shows over and over that such destruction will take place, whenever and wherever it can.

6.  Summary:  A.)  Laws always are obeyed only when it costs more to disregard the law than it does to obey it.  And, B.) if you give someone the ability to take away your job, they will.  Every. Time.

Those "natural" laws govern our daily life much more vigorously than any law passed by Congress.  That suggests that "offshoring" will continue to suceed only until someone is damaged badly enough to give them standing to sue, in the courts eyes.  But, when the cost of proving that damage is greater than any recovery if you win the lawsuite, no lawsuites will ever be filed.

We do live in a pretend world.  Even you.  We pretend that the laws and our national Constitution will protect us.  We pretend right up until we need that protection and discover that it is not there.  (See Edward Snowden and/or Athena health [who ships everything overseas] for details.)

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Re: Out of Network Chiropractic Provider
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2014, 03:57:56 PM »
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Linda - my bad.  I should have stated that my first couple of questions were rhetorical.  They were simply meant to help focus attention so my points would be more obvious.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

ahh.. ok.

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I was supporting your point made earlier in this thread.  And pointing out why your point won't ever win when the cost of complying is greater than the cost of non-compliance.

No, actually there is NO cost of non compliance for offshore, that was my main point. THEY can get away with non compliance, so why spend the money? These overseas companies spend most of their money on marketing.. LOL They look great on paper, but I'm sorry, if you are a U.S physician you are literally shooting craps hiring offshore companies. I don't care what they sign or what they say, it doesn't matter.
Linda Walker
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www.billerswebsite.com